Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.08
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   Q.   That is new, that one?
   A.   Yes.  It costs about #70 -- not as much as law books,
of

.          P-64


        course, but still quite expensive.
   Q.   I did not buy it.
   A.   It was only published last year.  I only obtained it
about
        four months ago.
   Q.   Well, now this is not in any sense a trick or an
        examination question or anything.  Can you look at
page
        12?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the last entry which I think is probably quarter
past
        6 -- it might be anyway, might it not?
   A.   The last line or the last entry?
   Q.   No, the last entry.
   A.   6.15.
   Q.   It looks like it, does it not?  Then across the line?
   A.   "SS Gruppenfuhrer ... Berlin".
   Q.   What is the first word of the entry in the right-hand
        column?
   A.   "Transport Nachersatz".
   Q.   It is the "a" of transport which I ask you to look at.
   A.   Yes, that is the real problem.
   Q.   No, it is not.
   A.   It is because the "a" looks exactly like the "e" in
Gothic
        handwriting.
   Q.   Exactly.  In fact, you might think to an English eye
it
        looks like a "u"?
   A.   No.

.          P-65



   Q.   "Trunsport"?
   A.   I will explain why it does not.
   Q.   No, no.
   A.   Well, no, please.
   Q.   It might be thought to an English person -- just bear
with
        me, answer my person -- it might be thought to look
like a
         "u", might it not?
   A.   Yes.  My Lord, do you have the facsimile in front of
you?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I am following.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now could you turn to page 14, please?
   A.   14, yes.
   Q.   In fact, that thing that looks like a "u" to an
English
        person in "transport" is an "a", is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now look at the word which you say you mistranscribed
as
        "Juden" which is three lines up from the bottom of the
        right-hand column ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- on page 14.
   A.   Yes, I have it.
   Q.   It is plainly "haben"; it is the same thing, it is an
"a",
        is it not?
   A.   That is what we call Monday morning quarter back ring.
It
        is somebody who knows what the answer is.  If I had
given
        this page to you, say, six months ago, Mr Rampton, and
        said, "Would you mind reading that word?"

.          P-66



   Q.   I would not have had a clue.  I cannot read hardly any
of
        it.
   A.   That was the position I was in 34 years ago when I
looked
        at this.
   Q.   Why?  But you have never gone back to it?
   A.   I must have gone back to it in the 1970s because I
retyped
        it on my transcript.
   Q.   The third letter, you think that is a "d" or you
thought
        it was a "d"?
   A.   If you look at the word "Juden" which I would ask you
to
        look at variously, for example ----
   Q.   We will look at it on page 12, if you want?
   A.   Yes.  About eight lines from the bottom.  In the third
        line of that entry you have "Judentransport",
admittedly,
        it is a bit ----
   Q.   It is obscured?
   A.   --- obscured by the word above it.
   Q.   I agree.
   A.   But you can already begin to see that there are
distinct
        similarities in the outline.
   Q.   I am afraid I cannot accept that.  Anyway, the point
is
        this, is it not ----
   A.   Yes, you hasten on, yes.
   Q.   -- you say, you tell us, that you read that word, that
        entry as reading:  "Verwaltungsfuhrer der SS Juden zu
        bleiben"?

.          P-67



   A.   Yes, and I can produce my contemporary index card on
which
        I made that transcription which shows at that time as
        "Juden zu bleiben".
   Q.   Turn, please, to page 13 of this bundle and there you
have
        it correctly?
   A.   I have corrected it, yes.
   Q.   You tell us to look at the word "haben".  One can see
if
        one looks that the letters are squashed?
   A.   It has been typed in subsequently with tippex, yes.
   Q.   Yes, or whatever was existing then because you say
that
        was retyped on a typewriter which you threw away more
than
        15 years ago?
   A.   Well, between 10 and 15 years ago -- an old IBM
typewriter
        I had.
   Q.   Yes, but before 1991?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now can you take "Hitler's War 1991", please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask you this, Mr Irving?  You
are
        fluent in German.  If you are trying to write that
        somebody has to stay somewhere, whether it is Jews or
        whoever, you would not say "haben zu bleiben", would
you?
   A.   They have to stay, "haben zu bleiben" would be the
German.
        Just the same as in English, has to stay, has to
remain.
   Q.   Is that right?
   A.   Yes.  But, on the other hand, the line "Juden zu
bleiben"
        would be also grammatically correct.

.          P-68



   Q.   That is abbreviation, but if you are using a verb at
all,
        you would say "haben" would be appropriate?
   A.   Yes, and you could equally well say the word above it
        which is "Verwaltungsfuhrer" was a line by itself and
a
        topic by itself which is what I assumed it was in the
        original transcript.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can you turn now to Hitler's War on page 427,
1991
        edition?
   A.   I do not have it in front of me, but if you would just
        read out the passage.
   Q.   D1(v).  I do not have to read very much.  My Lord,
page
        427.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  At the end of the last complete paragraph on
page
        427 -- is that 1991 you have there?
   A.   You will not believe this, but I am only person who
does
        not have a copy of that book.  People visit my house
and
        they think, "Well, that is nice".  It has gone!
   Q.   1991, volume 2, it is D1(v).
   A.   I would be quite ready to concede what you are about
to
        say.  We do not really need to go into this.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I probably ought to know what you are
about
        to concede.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  I do not think we should communicate by
        telepathy, Mr Irving!
   A.   Very well.

.          P-69



   Q.   Now, we have read the first part of this earlier this
        morning about "Hitler being obliged to telephone from
        Hitler's bunker to Heydrich the explicit order that
these
        Jews were 'not to be liquidated'".  Then you go on
after
        the semi-colon ----
   A.   Can you tell me what page you are on?
   Q.   I am sorry, 427.  I beg your pardon.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "... and the next day Himmler telephoned SS Oswohl
Pohl,
        overall chief of the concentration camp system, with
the
        order 'Jews are to stay where they are'."  When that
was
        published, you knew it was wrong, did you not?
   A.   Published what.
   Q.   When that was published, you knew it was wrong?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Why not?
   A.   When it was published, yes.  You must appreciate this
text
        you are looking at here was set by the Americans, by
the
        American publisher, A1 Books Limited, in probably 1985
or
        1986.  They published it round about that time, and
two or
        three years later, round about 1990, we approached the
        English publishers and had this American edition
        photographed and what is called offset, and reprinted
in
        our own edition which Mr Bateman is holding there,
what
        you call the 1991 edition.
                  So there is very little connection between
the

.          P-70



        actual year given as the year of publication and the
date
        when text goes into its final cast in stone form.
   Q.   Tell me that chronology again, Mr Irving.  It is
rather
        interesting.  When was the American edition of this
work
        written?
   A.   Written or?
   Q.   Written.
   A.   I have to piece it together from extraneous
information.
        I was in Quay West, I was in Florida.  It would have
been
        1985 and 1986 because I did it before I wrote the
Rudolf
        Hess book which was 1987 published, so it was 1985.
   Q.   So when were the references to the Holocaust removed
from
        it?
   A.   The references to the Holocaust?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   That is a good question.  That is a good question
because
        that would, in fact, bring it forward to 1988.
   Q.   Oh, really?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You see, Mr Irving, let me put my cards on the table,
as
        I habitually do, your Holocaust conversion, if I can
call
        it that, happened as a result, largely speaking,
perhaps,
        of your encounter with Mr Leuchter and his laboratory
        analyses?
   A.   Reading the laboratory reports, yes, which was April
6th
        1988.

.          P-71



   Q.   1988?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   As a consequence of that, we have been told by you,
not in
        this court but elsewhere and you will, no doubt,
confirm
        it in due course, this book in that respect ----
   A.   So the sequence of books is different.  I wrote the
Rudolf
        Hess book first and then I went to revise this.
   Q.   If you say so.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It was radically altered in that respect as compared
with
        the 1977 edition?
   A.   Taking out the word "Holocaust", yes.
   Q.   Now, here you have an entry, also as you know accept -
---
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- completely wrong, but it does not ----
   A.   Yes, but is it not exactly the same wording?
   Q.   It does not get changed.  It is exactly the same
wording.
   A.   In other words, I have not actually actively put in
        something; I have just left something to stand.
   Q.   No, you could have taken it out?
   A.   I could have taken it out, yes.  If somebody had come
to
        me and had said at the time, "Oh, Mr Irving, by the
way,
        do you not remember you misread that word and we have
now
        got a better reading", then, believe me, I would have
        taken it out and I would have contacted the Americans
and
        changed it.  But that is not what happens in real
life.

.          P-72



   Q.   You came to believe in 1988 that the so-called
Holocaust,
        as you call it, so-called, did not happen?
   A.   I have never used the phrase "so-called Holocaust",
        Mr Rampton.
   Q.   No, no.  I am in the difficulty, as you perfectly well
        understand, Mr Irving, there is no way in the world
that
        I am going to concede that it did not happen.  That is
not
        what this case is about.  I call it "so-called"
because in
        your eyes by then it was the "so-called Holocaust"?
   A.   You said the "so-called Holocaust, as you call it".
   Q.   No.  As you characterize it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes -- had not happened so you took steps to have the
book
        altered for its second edition to remove the
references to
        that ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- alleged event?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You did not bother to remove something which was,
first of
        all, important and, secondly, completely wrong?
   A.   This is a very subordinate matter in the book.  It is
a
        piece of secondary information which adds very little
to
        the principal argument.  The argument turns out now to
        have been correct on the basis of the decodes.  This
is a
        book of probably half a million words.  One word,
        admittedly, I should have changed because I had some
years

.          P-73



        earlier realized that I had misread it.  In all the
        500,000 words it never occurred to me that there may
be
        words which I still had not actually changed yet.  You
are
        absolutely right.
   Q.   Yes.  Then I suggest that your failure to remove it,
as
        you could easily have done, it now appears ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- was deliberate because you wanted to keep this
picture
        of benign, magnanimous Adolf Hitler holding up his arm
to
        save the Jews before the public?
   A.   I do not think so, and I do not think you can suggest
that
        just on the basis of that one line.  The Jews have to
        remain, have to remain where?  Have to remain in
        concentration camps.

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