Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.03
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, it is.  What did you originally
        transcribe that as?
   MR IRVING:  Juden, I would submit this is a perfectly
        reasonable kind of mistake to make.  If I was to
labour
        the point I would draw your Lordship's attention to
all
        the other versions of the word "Juden" that are
correct,
        you will see they are very similar indeed in the
German
        Gothic handwriting.
                  So what we have, my Lord, to recap at this
        point, November 30th Himmler for some reason in a
        telephone conversation with Heydrich saying that train
        load of Jews from Berlin is not to be liquidated.
        I believe that is a fair expansion of that sentence.
                  On the following day he has that telephone
        conversation with SS Gruppen Fuhrer Poll, I am back on
        page 13, at 4.45 p.m. They touch on Depervartens (?)

.          P-18



        Fuhrer, but more important now is the conversation,
again,
        with Heydrich about the same time as the previous one,
on
        the previous day, 13.15 on that page 13.  He has a
        conversation with Prague first of all about his
scribes,
        the female scribes and, secondly, "executionen", like
        "executions", in Riga.  I am sure I do not have to
        translate that.  So it is now very much in the air
that
        something has gone on in Riga, my Lord.
                  On page 15, that same day, we are well in
the
        chronology, my Lord, this is a telephone conversation
at
        7.15 a.m. on that Monday morning, December 1st, 1941.
        This is coming from Jeckelm to Berlin.  This is a very
        ugly one indeed, my Lord.  He is saying in English:
         "I need by next available air courier 10 Finnish",
        Finland, in other words, "military pistols with two
drum
        magazines each.  Execution of sonder aktionen",
special
        actions, S-O-N-D-E-R  A-K-T-I-O-A-N, "request radio
        telegramme reply.  Senior SS and Police Command, North
        Russia".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who is this addressed to in Berlin then?
   MR IRVING:  The main leadership Hauptamt, would be the body
        concerned with the procurement of such armaments.  The
        significance of this, my Lord, if you remember the
        harrowing description by General Bruns of the
shootings on
        the edge of the pit where the men were using machine
guns,
        tommy-guns, and he has run, he has not enough tommy-
guns,

.          P-19



        he needs more.  You can see the actual intercept of
that,
        my Lord, on the next page.
                  What is the answer he gets?  Page 17, again
my
        translation my Lord, Himmler himself contacts him,
either
        in person, that is the second message, or through his
        Adjutant, Grothmann (who is still alive in Germany
now).
        He sends this message to that same criminal, Jeckelm,
at
        7.30 p.m. on December 1st:  To SS Obergruppenfuhrer
        Jeckelm, Senior SS and Police Commander, Osla, Riga.
        Reichfuhrer SS Himmler summons you to him for a
conference
        on December 4th.  Please state when you will arrive
here
        and by what means you will be travelling".  In other
        words, he had been summoned urgently to the
Headquarters.
        The very next message explains what is going to
happen.
         "SS Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckelm" -- this is the message
we
        dealt with yesterday, my Lord -- "The Jews being
outplaced
        to Osland", to the Baltic, "are to be dealt with only
in
        accordance with the guidelines laid down by myself
and/or
        by the ... (reading to the words) ... on my orders.
        I would punish arbitrary and disobedient acts", signed
        Himmler.  A most incredibly important message, I
think,
        for many reasons.  He is not talking about a Hitler
order
        here.  He is saying:  "The guidelines issued by me",
by
        Himmler, "or by the Reichssicherheits Hauptamt" who is
        Heydrich", his telephone conversation partner.
Jeckelm,
        out on the Eastern front, has overstepped the
guidelines.

.          P-20



        He started shooting thousands of Germans.  He had been
        summoned to Himmler's headquarters, to Rastenburg, in
East
        Prussia to account for himself.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where do we find the guideline?
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, we will hear in the course of this
trial
        that these intercepts are not wall to wall.  We do not
        have everything that they sent.  There is an enormous
mass
        of trivia, people whose cars have been towed and that
kind
        of thing, people whose wives have died.  Occasionally
        embedded in the trivia, like in a goldmine, in the
slurry,
        there are diamonds like this.
                  The incredible thing is, although this
document
        has now been in the public domain for about five or
six
        years, the historians and the world have not leapt on
this
        document and said,"Irving was right.  This proves that
the
        Fuhrer's headquarters were not only indignant, but
were
        calling people to account.  In the way that the wars
are,
        although he is brought back from the Front and he is
        wrapped on the knuckles, he is sent back to the Front
to
        carry on with his job.  He is not dismissed from
service;
        in rather the same way as I know General Patten, for
        example, went to the Front when General Patten had
been
        liquidating prisoners.  He was called before
Eisenhauer
        and called to account.  He was put on ice for two or
three
        months and then he was given command of one of the
best
        armies, the 3rd American Army, because good men are
hard

.          P-21



        to come by in a war.  That is, undoubtedly, the way
the
        Nazis viewed this criminal.
                  May I proceed, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, thank you.
   MR IRVING:  We can see on page 21 the arrival of the
        unfortunate criminal, the arrival of the unfortunate
        criminal, SS Obbergruppenfuhrer Jeckelm in Himmler's
        appointment book, in other words, at Hitler's
        headquarters.  One notices at 1300 they are driving
over
        Hitler's headquarters.  Then Himmler visits the barber
and
        the dentist.  He sees Hitler at 5 p.m. and at 7 p.m.
he
        sees other SS Generals.  At 8 p.m. he has dinner in
part
        of Hitler's headquarters with Jeckelm and at 9.30 he
hauls
        Jeckelm over the carpet, the Jewish question, the SS
        brigade, economic business.  So that is the actual
visit.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Would it be a fair interpretation of this
        document that the original plan was that Jeckelm
should be
        present with Hitler and Himmler at 5 o'clock in the
        afternoon?
   MR IRVING:  I cannot be specific on that, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It looks like it, does it not?
   MR IRVING:  I do not want to speculate, but these are grey
        areas.  The documents do not tell us everything we
would
        dearly love to know.  What we do know is the final two
        pages I put in the bundle.  My Lord, you will see that
the
        last page has some red print on the bottom, the very
last

.          P-22



        page.  This is the German, I would say, official
        transcript of Himmler's diary which, my Lord, the
        Defendants also have on the desk in front of them.  It
is
        published this year.  It is enormously expensive.  It
is a
        very good and highly dependable transcription of
Himmler's
        diaries and appointment book.
                  They put that in as a footnote at 104,
        I believe, in which they say:  "After these signals
were
        exchanged", which, oddly enough, they do not elucidate
to
        the degree that I have, "the killings of German Jews
        stopped for many months".  I have no further
submissions
        to make about these documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have lost me a little.  Where do I
find
        after these messages ----
   MR IRVING:  The very last line of the red text.  This is
the
        comments by the editors, who are a team of German
        historians, on the Himmler diaries which they have
        annotated most expertly, and they too have drawn
finally
        on these two mysterious messages that we intercepted.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But the point that may be made, I do not
        know, on this is that it is the mass shootings of
German
        Jews that ceased.
   MR IRVING:  I agree, my Lord.  This is why I have been very
        careful to make a distinction in my evidence and,
indeed,
        in my books.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That suggests to me -- tell me if I am
wrong

.          P-23



        about this -- that the guidelines mentioned in the
earlier
        message were guidelines relating to German Jews.
   MR IRVING:  This is quite possible, my Lord.  I would only
ask
        you in reading, as undoubtedly you will, and re-
reading
        passages from my books on which the Defendants seek to
        rely, you ask yourself this question, has Mr Irving,
the
        so-called Holocaust denier, at any time implied that
this
        kind of massacre did not go on, and that it was
systematic
        and it was carried out on guidelines from above?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  But you will notice that Mr Himmler talks about
         "orders that I have issued and the Reichssicherheits
        Hauptamt".  He never says, "On the Fuhrer's
instructions"
        which, obviously, there would be a strong temptation
in a
        message like this to say, "You have not only upset me,
but
        you have put Adolf's nose really out of joint".
                  So, I mean, obviously, I am going to submit
that
        if documents like this exist of a quality like that,
to
        imply that I was speaking off the wall in some way
with no
        kind of documentary basis for the submissions that I
make
        in my books, it would be unfair, unjust and perverse.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  You have taken me through, and
thank
        you for that ----
   MR IRVING:  I ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- this little bundle.  I am making this
        point at this stage because it is going to crop up
time

.          P-24



        and again.  I am rather anxious not to have little one
        issue bundles cropping up at odd stages because,
frankly,
        in a case of this length, it is all going to get lost
and
        tangled.  I imagine that all these documents are in
one or
        other of the existing files.
   MR IRVING:  They are in this cover, my Lord, but not in
such
        pristine condition as that.  I want to very great
trouble
        last night to prepare this particular bundle in the
hope
        that you would say to yourself, well, if he was able
to
        come up with evidence like this on this matter, no
doubt
        he will be able on any other matter ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not misunderstand me.  I am not
critical.
        I think it is helpful to have a bundle prepared like
this,
        but what I need to be sure of is that I know where
these
        documents can be found in the existing files.  What I
will
        ask somebody on the Defendants' side to do, if they
would
        be good enough, if they can do this, is to provide me
with
        the cross-reference.  Could you ask somebody to do
that?
   MR RAMPTON:  We will think about that.  The trouble is at
the
        moment that our files are ordered according to the
        experts' reports.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but most of these documents would be
        relatively easily traced?
   MR RAMPTON:  Most of them, I think, are referred to in the
        expert reports anyway.  Whether they are copied in
quite
        that form, I am not sure; I think probably not.

.          P-25



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You see why I need to have what I am
asking
        for.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I do.  My immediate idea is just to put
them
        with a separate numeration at the back of Professor
        Browning or that report.  It is apparently ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think that is not a bad idea, to put
them
        into J, otherwise there is going to be proliferation
of...
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am using an alphabetical system
which
        requires that there are going to be less than 26 such
        files over the entire case that I would anticipate
putting
        in of this nature.  If you will bear with me, the
reason
        I called this just "Himmler" is that I was intending
to
        produce further documents, for example, the
Schlegelberger
        series (which I am sure your Lordship is familiar
with).
        I would also put that into that binder.  So there will
        just be an Irving series, Irving A, Irving B, Irving
C.
        This is, after all, my case, my Lord, and I do not
want my
        structure to be subsumed into the case for the
Defendants.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I entirely agree with that.  This may all
        seem very boring, but, believe me, in a case like this
you
         ----
   MR IRVING:  "Boring" is not a word I would use.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- really do have to watch the sort of
        housekeeping.  Just so that everybody knows where I
have
        it, I am putting it into J.
   MR RAMPTON:  Tab C.

.          P-26



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got a tab C.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I would propose that we now continue
where
        we left off last night.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am going to treat what you have told me
in
        the last 20 minutes or so as being part of your
evidence,
        although you told me from counsel's bench.  It is up
to
        you; I think you probably ought to go back, if you
would
        be good enough, into the witness box.
                  Cross-examined by MR RAMPTON, QC, continued.
   THE WITNESS:  My Lord, there is just one other document
there
        that I forgot to refer to and this is No. 23.  I will
just
        read it out to you.  There is no need for your
Lordship to
        see it.

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