Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.02
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   MR IRVING:  Yes, my Lord, except that at that time it does

.          P-9


        indicate at that time he did not have the German
        originals.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, Mr Irving.  I beg your pardon.
May
        I intervene to ask your Lordship to insert it in that
        bundle?  It comes from Mr Irving's discovery.  There
is no
        mystery about it.  Professor Hinsley's reply.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was not there.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, we have it now.
   MR IRVING:  I could not find it last night, my Lord.  In is
        Professor Hinsley indicates that he has obviously not
yet
        seen himself the German originals of the British
        intercepts.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  It is quite interesting.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The postscript is perhaps of some
        significance.
   MR IRVING:  It is interesting the British Official
Historian
        and British Secret Service had either not been allowed
to
        see or had not found in general chaos the
documentation,
        these are the originals, which are now in the Public
        Record Office.  But the German originals are very,
very
        informative in their scope, breadth and depth.
                  That, my Lord, is 04.  This is the first of
the
        notes of the telephone conversations from Himmler's
        telephone log to the Chief of the SS, and the one on
which
        I rely is the one timed 12.15.  It is the fourth

.          P-10



        conversation.  I am afraid I have not attached a
        translation of it, but I will do a translation on
reply on
        the one or two lines that matter.  It is a 15 minute
        conversation with Heydrich who on that day was in
Berlin.
        We do not know who initiated the conversation, my
Lord,
        but Heydrich phoned Himmler or Himmler phoned
Heydrich.
        We never see them. We have to infer.  Conference with
        Rosenberg, conditions in the government general,
getting
        rid of the Jews, beseitigung of the Jews, and then the
        third line -- the fourth line rather, juristen
        nuralseerater, roughly lawyers just as advisers.
                  Nothing else on that page to which I will
        refer.  Merely it shows there were conversations going
on
        between these two gentlemen on liquidation or getting
rid
        of the Jews.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the significance for my purpose
of
        that?
   MR IRVING:  It is the context in which the principal
document
        is embedded, my Lord.  The inference that has been
drawn
        against me is that I have one cardinal document and
        I would go around the world waving this document and
        saying "here it the proof".  It is, in fact, showing
that
        they were constantly talking about getting rid of the
        Jews, using --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  There is no issue, is there, that that
was
        something that both Himmler and Heydrich were intent
upon

.          P-11



        doing.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  The word " beseitigung" is interesting.
You
        can look at it either this way or that way, literally
as
        getting rid of, which can be sweeping under the carpet
or
        liquidation.  I am quite happy to accept that here
they
        were talking about liquidation, these two gentlemen.
It
        now becomes more interesting, my Lord, on page 5.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you just let me highlight?
   MR IRVING:  We come to the intercepts and Mr Rampton does
not
        wish me at this point to bring in this material.  I am
        quite happy to turn the page, but I think it is useful
to
        bring it in all in chronological sequence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When you "intercept" --
   MR IRVING:  This is the Bletchley Park intercept of the --
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Messages to Berlin.
   MR IRVING:  Messages between Berlin and the Eastern Front
for
        police commanders, and also a whole number of other SS
        units, but these are the ones I rely on.
                  No. 35 is a message addressed from Berlin on
        November 17th, that same day as the previous
conversation,
        to the commander of security police, Dr Lange, L-A-N-G-
E,
        in Riga, concerning, and I use the next word in
original
        German -- these are my translations, concerning the
        evakierung of the Jews.  "Evakierung", my Lord, is one
of
        those words we will probably tussle over.  The literal
        translation is "evacuation", but I am perfectly ready
to

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        accept for the purposes of this action that
"evakierung"
        is occasionally used by the SS as a euphemism for a
more
        ugly means of disposing.
                  But in this particular case what is
significant
        is that the man in Berlin is telling the recipient in
        Riga, on November 17th, in other words, that same day,
at
        6.25 p.m., transport train No. DO 26 has left Berlin
for
        Kovno or Kornas, with 940 more Jews on board.  That
was
        usually the rough size of each train load of Jews,
about
        1,000 Jews.  Transport escorted by two Gestapo and 15
        police officers. Transport commander is Criminal
        Overassessor Exner, the man's name, who was two copies
of
        the transport list with him.  Transport provided with
        following provisions, and this is interesting part, my
        Lord, 3,000 kilogrammes of bread, three tonnes of
bread
        for a two or three day journey.  27 kilogrammes of
flour,
        nearly three tonnes of flour; 200 kilogrammes of peas;
200
        kilogrammes of nutriments; 300 kilogrammes of corn
flakes;
        18 bottles of soup spices.  They continue in the next
        message; 52 kilogrammes soup powders, 10 packets of
        something or other, we do not know; 50 kilogrammes of
        salt; 47,200 Reich Marks in crates.  Signed Gestapo
        Headquarters, Berlin.  Quite an interesting document,
my
        Lord.  It is the first kind of thing we come across in
my
        view to show that these trains were actually
        well-provisioned.  It is a bit of a dent, a tiny dent
in

.          P-13



        the image that we have, the perception, as Mr Rampton
        calls it, of the Holocaust today.
                  The next one, page 6, is a message
intercepted
        on 20th November.  It is unimportant for our purposes
on
        what day it was decoded.  It was decoded 10 days.  It
        takes 10 days to decode it. The actual message is
dated
        three days later, 20th November 1941, again, dressed
do
        commander of order police and the SS in Riga,
concerning
        evacuation of Jews.  The same kind of thing, transport
        train No. DO56.  Has left Bremen, destination Minsk
with
        971 Jews on 18th November.  Escort command regular
police
        Bremen, transport commander Police Meister Bockhorn,
        B-O-C-K-H-O-R-N, is in possession of two lists of
names
        and 48,700 Reich Marks in cashiers' credits.  Jews are
        well-provisioned with food and appliances.
                  My Lord, on the next page you will see the
        actual intercept, page 7 is what the actual intercept
        looked like.  They are headed "Most Secret".  It is
the
        second paragraph, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Most secret" is put on at Bletchley, is
it
        not?
   MR IRVING:  Indeed, of course.  There is no indication on
the
        intercepts themselves, as intercepted here, what
security
        classification they have.  But I want to draw
attention
        only to the word "gerat" in the fifth or sixth line of
the
        intercept, which means appliances.  Any German
speakers in

.          P-14



        the room I am sure would agree the word "gerat" is the
        tools of the trade, roughly, they are being sent to
the
        East with food, with provisions, and with the tools of
        their trade.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have translated that as what?
   MR IRVING:  Appliances.  It is a rough cover all, tools of
the
        trade would be a little bit too specific, I am sure
        Mr Rampton will probably eventually object.  But the
sense
        of gerat, if a cameraman comes into this room he would
        bring his gerat with him, his appliances with him.
                  The next one is No. 15, I rely on this
because
        it shows in the first line, I am sorry I am still on
page
        6, my Lord, the second message on page 6 SS
Obergruppen
        Fuhrer Jeckelm, transferred from Kiev to Riga.  So
that
        was the day this criminal was transferred to Riga,
round
        about November 20th, and in fact it is a pretty low
level
        message.  They are worried about what happened to
motor
        cars and things like that if I remember correctly.
                  If we can now turn straight over to page 9,
my
        Lord, I took the trouble during the night to dig out
of my
        files, the war diary of Hitler's headquarters, which
        I have.  These are all my documents.  All my documents
        when I obtained them for the book, I had bound in
these
        volumes because I anticipated perhaps Mr Rampton would
        say, well, we have no proof that Hitler was in his
        headquarters, that he was at home on the day of
crucial

.          P-15



        message November 30th.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, he would not say that, my Lord, because
        Himmler recalls that he had lunch with Hitler on that
day.
   MR IRVING:  Well, I am just dotting the Is and crossing the
Ts.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point is not made, so we need not
trouble
        with that.
   MR IRVING:  It also talks about the arrival of the Fuhrer's
        train that very morning. On the following day is the
        photocopy from the page of war diary at Hitler's
        headquarters.  We then come to the crucial document we
        were talking about yesterday evening, which I ...
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I still have your copy of that.
   MR IRVING:  I put it in the bundles for sake of
completeness.
        It is referred to in the third conversation.  I draw
        attention only to the first lines, which says:
"Telephone
        conversation on November 30th 1941".  The next line
"Wolf
        stanche" means Wolf's Lair.  The next line
"ausdemzung" it
        means from the train.  Himmler is still in the train
going
        to Hitler's headquarters.
                  Three lines down, ausdembunker, from the
bunker,
        he is at the bunker now, in the Wolf's Lair, 13.30 he
        telephones Heydrich, as we know only the third and
fourth
        line of the notes are important, "Jew transport from
        Berlin, no liquidation".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  If I may proceed now to page 13, my Lord.  This
is

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        the one that I am alleged mysteriously to have misread
and
        the implication being I deliberately misread it or
        deliberately changed word the Gerhartens Fuhrer (?)
into
        "juden", which would be quite a feat.
                  My Lord on the page 13 the question of the
line,
        the contentious line is third from the bottom, haben
        zubleiben.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have to remain.
   MR IRVING:  You will notice, my Lord, the word "haben" has
        obviously been retyped, a bit of squeeze getting it
in.
        It was retyped by my when I realized my error in
        transcription.  That typewriter was disposed of some
or
        ten or 15 years ago.  That is how early I realized my
        error.  I do not know if it is significant one way or
the
        other, it may count against me.  I do not know.
                  It is also significant to see in the
following
        line, my Lord, I have written the words
"truppenschuhe",
        and this is another misreading by me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not really matter, does it.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I am just trying to say as you will
see
        from the next page, which I now ask you to turn.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before you leave that, I thought there
was
        another point made on this document, which is your
        translation of the words --
   MR IRVING:   That is Verwallueys Fuhrer.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   Am I not right about that?

.          P-17



   MR IRVING:  This was the point Mr Rampton sought to make,
and
        I corrected him, my Lord, and said that was not the
word
        that I misread.  It was the word on the following line
        haben, which I misread as Juden, and this is why I was
        going to ask your Lordship, respectfully, to turn to
the
        next page, page 14, where you will see the words in
        question, three lines from the bottom on the right,
that
        is the quality of the original I was working from.  I
do
        not know if your copy is highlighted, the crucial word
is
        not perhaps...

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